Thank you again for a great debate on our current affairs, particularly now after the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
It is astounding how much America changed between 2007 and 2016. After the great recession and followed by the Obama presidency when the millennials came of age, the US turned progressive, left-of center almost overnight. And the backlash from the Right started almost right away, first with the Tea party in 2009-2010, and then with MAGA since 2016.
Millennials may not know but the US was right of center in mid 90s when I came to the US to study at the UIUC. Having been born and brought up in a more socialist country (India), where there was constant talk of extending reservations (India's affirmative action policy) to even more castes, I was surprised at how average (mostly white) Americans did not believe in grievances and oppression. There was no talk of systemic racism even though CRT had been around since mid-50s.
The OJ Simpson murder case was an eye opener for me; I had no idea who OJ was, and I saw the whole drama of the car chase play out on TV, and the subsequent trial, and finally, the judgment that exonerated him. As a student, I used to work part-time at the university for a particular (withholding the name) department, and the head assistant running the department efficiently was a no-nonsense white lady from the mid-west, and I remember her coming back with the rest of the staff after seeing OJ's acquittal live on TV, and expressing shock at the judgment, disappointed that the black dominated jury decided to acquit an obvious murderer. I cannot imaging anyone in a university setting express such a sentiment a year ago.
Charlie Kirk founding TPP in 2012 and visiting campuses since should be seen as a belated attempt by the Right to return the US back to the center-right country it was in the mid-90s; for many on the Right, even if not founded as an explicit christian nation, the US was built on Christian morality and principles. The Right also believes there has been too much accommodation of fringe groups that has led to disorder (especially in urban areas), while directing discrimination against whites in college and other admissions, especially white males, to level the playing field.
Personally, I prefer where we were in 2008 when we elected our first black president, but I suspect we will end up going back to 1994 instead, which is unfortunate. But, a lesson for democrats: if you don't push back and discipline the fringe Left, the Right will. I hope the party shows some spine, not against Trump and MAGA as Shadi suggests, but against its own Left flank. Only then will it have the credibility to take on MAGA. During the Obama years it appeared that the Left had won the culture wars. I remember a column by Ross Douthat writing in 2014 anticipating Obergefell and terming conservatives position as that of complete defeat. But the Left overreached and may have ended up losing the culture wars.
The right radicalized in the last four years because of Biden-era law fare and wokeness? You guys have been alive for the last thirty years right, or did history start four years ago? The Clinton impeachment, the metastasizing right wing media with Limbaugh as the model, govt shutdowns, playing games with the debt, the blocking of a Supreme Court nomination, bitherism, the nomination of the chief birther, the purging of moderates, the overturning of Roe, I could go on and on about the obvious radicalization of conservatives. At some point maybe you just have to call the thing the thing despite the desire to be non partisan and above it all. There’s no equivalency here. I hate a lot of the liberal moral panic that happened in the first Trump term but try not to forget how we got to the point where a norm breaking reality show host got elevated by the Republican base. That guy is currently enriching himself and his family while in office. He is manifestly corrupt. If we get through the coming years intact, surely you guys understand how this history is going to be written.
Have you ever puzzled over why there was no equivalent to “Trump Derangement Syndrome” for conservatives in the Obama era? Do we remember how they reacted to his presidency? The notion that Russiagate aided the radicalization of conservatives is given lots of air time but like, Obama was immediately labeled as illegitimate, Trump became the figurehead of a movement to prove he shouldn’t have been president because he was a foreigner, Republican voters elevated Trump to lead their party, he became president with a minority of voters… yet where’s the sympathetic understanding for liberals overreacting to this sequence of events in their response to the Trump era? Liberals always seem to get granted agency, treated like the adults who should know better than to overreact while conservatives are the children who just can’t help themselves.
That’s paywalled but if it explains the lineage and long march of conservative radicalism to show how the Republican Party has effectively been taken over by John Birch types, with a celebrity strongman as cult figurehead, then I agree with it.
I wonder if the 'toilet bowl' comparison might not be overly pessimistic? We could simply be swirling around in the bowl at a consistent level, rather than actually going down the drain?
Shadi 'has never been more disgusted'.... errr... I think the plague of righteous Jew haters who were ripping down posters of kidnapped children on Oct 8 might have moved him more if his moral compass had not been skewed.
"The country that I believe in fighting for is being taken from me and from us..."
You nailed Shadi! As a conservative this is how it has felt for the last 20 years. If only you could walk through a Walmart and see the other side.
If we can't get back to two principles, we'll never dig ourselves out of this:
1) Speech. Is. Not. Violence. (Say it with me!)
2) Hate is not, in and of itself, against the law
The vacuum left in the absence of these common-sense AMERICAN values is what killed Charlie Kirk, and what makes the aftermath his assassination so incredibly virulent.
It's good to remember that the lex talionis ("an eye for an eye") sets a limit on the taking of revenge. In the schoolyard, one is tempted to hit the bully back harder so that he never thinks of hitting you again. The Allies after the Great War decided in Versailles that Germany would never rise again. They failed in that endeavor. Meanwhile the Treaty of Trianon has succeeded until the present day. I point it out because there is a real logic to trying to use excessive force to definitively end a conflict for the foreseeable future.
It doesn't matter all that much when exactly the pendulum started swinging harder and harder to each side. As for me, I was more or less an independent until Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) and only slowly became a Trump fan after his unexpected win. If we fast forward to 2020's falsehoods, propaganda, and groupthink regarding "the China virus" in Democrat states and left-leaning institutions you would find me absolutely bewildered at what was happening around the entire world let alone the USA. Now, after what feels like a desperate attempt to silence Charlie Kirk whose arguments could not be dealt with on their own terms the temptation for revenge has never been greater. A leftist would find his own set of grievances, no doubt, many of which would probably seem of little consequence to me.
What stops the radicalization, resentment, and self-defense from turning into revenge against the bully? Both sides feel it each time the counter-attack hits harder and deeper than last time.
It is the task of a real legislator like Hammurabi to set up justice in order "to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak." Most of us alive today are not in a position to legislate beyond our own homes. We can cast a vote one way or another and, well, that's it for the American system.
Hammurabi did not pull himself up by his bootstraps. His kingship was set in place by the gods. Similarly today legislators need to look to eternal truths if they want to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak while not becoming the strong oppressors themselves. In particular, those who follow the "New Law" of Christ have to remember how "blessed are the peacemakers" for the great reward prepared for them as "children of God" in heaven but not here on earth.
OK, let me see if I've got this straight: Charlie Kirk was just assassinated, leftists are CHEERING that assassination by the tens of thousands, but "Shadi thinks the Right is an existential threat to American democracy." Did I miss something?
Longtime listener and very rarely comment. I think you both are over analyzing the politics. Walter Kirn (I have mixed feelings on him) has argued that Luigi Mangione's murder of the United Healthcare CEO started a new trend in America and this one is a copycat. They are carefully curated killings made to shock everyone on social media platforms. This is probably why he picked Kirk. They are highly performative. It's almost like they invite the audience to help solve the crime and immediately give their opinion. I find his arguments rather persuasive, personally. Perhaps, it's more about the technology than the politics. My biggest fear is that Magione and this guy are going to start a new trend to inspire alienated men who are very "online." Here, I'm drawing an analogy to Columbine and school shootings and the countless copy cats. Here is also a solid investigative journalist report on the Trump shooter from a Pittsburgh paper - https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-nation/2025/07/06/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-butler-bethel-park/stories/202506100041
I'm from Pittsburgh and the reporting is spot on. I grew up one township over from the shooter. He also shot Trump on the roof of one of my dad's customers. I have been to that place many times since I was a kid!
Thank you again for a great debate on our current affairs, particularly now after the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
It is astounding how much America changed between 2007 and 2016. After the great recession and followed by the Obama presidency when the millennials came of age, the US turned progressive, left-of center almost overnight. And the backlash from the Right started almost right away, first with the Tea party in 2009-2010, and then with MAGA since 2016.
Millennials may not know but the US was right of center in mid 90s when I came to the US to study at the UIUC. Having been born and brought up in a more socialist country (India), where there was constant talk of extending reservations (India's affirmative action policy) to even more castes, I was surprised at how average (mostly white) Americans did not believe in grievances and oppression. There was no talk of systemic racism even though CRT had been around since mid-50s.
The OJ Simpson murder case was an eye opener for me; I had no idea who OJ was, and I saw the whole drama of the car chase play out on TV, and the subsequent trial, and finally, the judgment that exonerated him. As a student, I used to work part-time at the university for a particular (withholding the name) department, and the head assistant running the department efficiently was a no-nonsense white lady from the mid-west, and I remember her coming back with the rest of the staff after seeing OJ's acquittal live on TV, and expressing shock at the judgment, disappointed that the black dominated jury decided to acquit an obvious murderer. I cannot imaging anyone in a university setting express such a sentiment a year ago.
Charlie Kirk founding TPP in 2012 and visiting campuses since should be seen as a belated attempt by the Right to return the US back to the center-right country it was in the mid-90s; for many on the Right, even if not founded as an explicit christian nation, the US was built on Christian morality and principles. The Right also believes there has been too much accommodation of fringe groups that has led to disorder (especially in urban areas), while directing discrimination against whites in college and other admissions, especially white males, to level the playing field.
Personally, I prefer where we were in 2008 when we elected our first black president, but I suspect we will end up going back to 1994 instead, which is unfortunate. But, a lesson for democrats: if you don't push back and discipline the fringe Left, the Right will. I hope the party shows some spine, not against Trump and MAGA as Shadi suggests, but against its own Left flank. Only then will it have the credibility to take on MAGA. During the Obama years it appeared that the Left had won the culture wars. I remember a column by Ross Douthat writing in 2014 anticipating Obergefell and terming conservatives position as that of complete defeat. But the Left overreached and may have ended up losing the culture wars.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/opinion/sunday/the-terms-of-our-surrender.html
Couldn't agree more. If the left keeps pandering to its most extreme wing, it will keep bleeding out. And good riddance.
The right radicalized in the last four years because of Biden-era law fare and wokeness? You guys have been alive for the last thirty years right, or did history start four years ago? The Clinton impeachment, the metastasizing right wing media with Limbaugh as the model, govt shutdowns, playing games with the debt, the blocking of a Supreme Court nomination, bitherism, the nomination of the chief birther, the purging of moderates, the overturning of Roe, I could go on and on about the obvious radicalization of conservatives. At some point maybe you just have to call the thing the thing despite the desire to be non partisan and above it all. There’s no equivalency here. I hate a lot of the liberal moral panic that happened in the first Trump term but try not to forget how we got to the point where a norm breaking reality show host got elevated by the Republican base. That guy is currently enriching himself and his family while in office. He is manifestly corrupt. If we get through the coming years intact, surely you guys understand how this history is going to be written.
https://gen.medium.com/the-problem-of-donald-trump-didnt-start-with-donald-trump-1e44751116bb Wrote this a while ago.
Have you ever puzzled over why there was no equivalent to “Trump Derangement Syndrome” for conservatives in the Obama era? Do we remember how they reacted to his presidency? The notion that Russiagate aided the radicalization of conservatives is given lots of air time but like, Obama was immediately labeled as illegitimate, Trump became the figurehead of a movement to prove he shouldn’t have been president because he was a foreigner, Republican voters elevated Trump to lead their party, he became president with a minority of voters… yet where’s the sympathetic understanding for liberals overreacting to this sequence of events in their response to the Trump era? Liberals always seem to get granted agency, treated like the adults who should know better than to overreact while conservatives are the children who just can’t help themselves.
That’s paywalled but if it explains the lineage and long march of conservative radicalism to show how the Republican Party has effectively been taken over by John Birch types, with a celebrity strongman as cult figurehead, then I agree with it.
I wonder if the 'toilet bowl' comparison might not be overly pessimistic? We could simply be swirling around in the bowl at a consistent level, rather than actually going down the drain?
It occurs to me Trump's condemnations of the radical left aren't really an escalation, so much as an inversion of Biden's rhetoric about white supremacist terrorism, which he often described as the gravest threat to the homeland, etc. (see e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/05/14/biden-white-supremacy-howard-university/)
Of course it's a shame that Trump didn't respond like the governor of Utah did, but that wasn't Biden's approach, either.
Shadi 'has never been more disgusted'.... errr... I think the plague of righteous Jew haters who were ripping down posters of kidnapped children on Oct 8 might have moved him more if his moral compass had not been skewed.
"The country that I believe in fighting for is being taken from me and from us..."
You nailed Shadi! As a conservative this is how it has felt for the last 20 years. If only you could walk through a Walmart and see the other side.
If we can't get back to two principles, we'll never dig ourselves out of this:
1) Speech. Is. Not. Violence. (Say it with me!)
2) Hate is not, in and of itself, against the law
The vacuum left in the absence of these common-sense AMERICAN values is what killed Charlie Kirk, and what makes the aftermath his assassination so incredibly virulent.
It's good to remember that the lex talionis ("an eye for an eye") sets a limit on the taking of revenge. In the schoolyard, one is tempted to hit the bully back harder so that he never thinks of hitting you again. The Allies after the Great War decided in Versailles that Germany would never rise again. They failed in that endeavor. Meanwhile the Treaty of Trianon has succeeded until the present day. I point it out because there is a real logic to trying to use excessive force to definitively end a conflict for the foreseeable future.
It doesn't matter all that much when exactly the pendulum started swinging harder and harder to each side. As for me, I was more or less an independent until Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) and only slowly became a Trump fan after his unexpected win. If we fast forward to 2020's falsehoods, propaganda, and groupthink regarding "the China virus" in Democrat states and left-leaning institutions you would find me absolutely bewildered at what was happening around the entire world let alone the USA. Now, after what feels like a desperate attempt to silence Charlie Kirk whose arguments could not be dealt with on their own terms the temptation for revenge has never been greater. A leftist would find his own set of grievances, no doubt, many of which would probably seem of little consequence to me.
What stops the radicalization, resentment, and self-defense from turning into revenge against the bully? Both sides feel it each time the counter-attack hits harder and deeper than last time.
It is the task of a real legislator like Hammurabi to set up justice in order "to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak." Most of us alive today are not in a position to legislate beyond our own homes. We can cast a vote one way or another and, well, that's it for the American system.
Hammurabi did not pull himself up by his bootstraps. His kingship was set in place by the gods. Similarly today legislators need to look to eternal truths if they want to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak while not becoming the strong oppressors themselves. In particular, those who follow the "New Law" of Christ have to remember how "blessed are the peacemakers" for the great reward prepared for them as "children of God" in heaven but not here on earth.
OK, let me see if I've got this straight: Charlie Kirk was just assassinated, leftists are CHEERING that assassination by the tens of thousands, but "Shadi thinks the Right is an existential threat to American democracy." Did I miss something?
Longtime listener and very rarely comment. I think you both are over analyzing the politics. Walter Kirn (I have mixed feelings on him) has argued that Luigi Mangione's murder of the United Healthcare CEO started a new trend in America and this one is a copycat. They are carefully curated killings made to shock everyone on social media platforms. This is probably why he picked Kirk. They are highly performative. It's almost like they invite the audience to help solve the crime and immediately give their opinion. I find his arguments rather persuasive, personally. Perhaps, it's more about the technology than the politics. My biggest fear is that Magione and this guy are going to start a new trend to inspire alienated men who are very "online." Here, I'm drawing an analogy to Columbine and school shootings and the countless copy cats. Here is also a solid investigative journalist report on the Trump shooter from a Pittsburgh paper - https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-nation/2025/07/06/thomas-crooks-trump-rally-butler-bethel-park/stories/202506100041
I'm from Pittsburgh and the reporting is spot on. I grew up one township over from the shooter. He also shot Trump on the roof of one of my dad's customers. I have been to that place many times since I was a kid!
Forgot to also mentioned. All three of these men are GenZ. Another script has emerged with violence. That’s scary.