This was a fascinating podcast. Many talk of creating a genuine heterodox environment but this podcast does what so many fail at.
On the point that Shadi made on the person who couldn't bring themselves to feel anything at the atrocity, i think the answer has to be they must feel empathy for the other side. It's easy for me to say this, but what is the alternative? A degeneration into mere violence for the Palestinian's is the road to absolute ruin. It will not win them a state nor the broader international support required for a genuine solution. It must also be said, the moment we stop feeling empathy for those with whom we dislike or even hate, is the moment we let ourselves off the moral leash. It is a profoundly dangerous position to find ourselves in.
Hey guys, a very informative podcast. I read Shadi’s book, "Islamic Exceptionalism", when it first came out. Unlike Shadi I come to this as a Jewish Zionist supporter of Israel. While at one time I was in favor of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, sadly I have come to agree with Shadi and Robert that this is indeed a foundational zero-sum conflict that cannot be resolved. At least I think that is what Shadi and Robert were saying.
Twenty years ago, during the Second Intifada and not long after 9/11, I was teaching at Yeshiva University in New York. I still believed a two-state solution was possible. Several of my very intelligent, committed, and Talmud trained students took issue with me. They called for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Presenting the conflict in existential, zero-sum, tribal terms, they said: “This is a war for survival. It’s Us or Them. Either we push them over the Jordan, or they push us into the sea. There is no middle ground.”
I have come to understand the logic of their position. The Palestinians have never wanted a two-state solution. I know Shadi will disagree. But this most recent Hamas pogrom just confirmed what I came to understand after the Second Intifada: the goal and aspiration of the Palestinians, and not just Hamas, is the destruction of the Jewish state and the genocide of the Jewish people. They want to complete Hitler’s work. Which is the meaning of the battle cry, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free!” So, to be brutally honest, I no longer care much about the fate of the Palestinians. Like Shadi’s mom’s Palestinian friend, my concern is for my own tribes: America and the Jews.
Geopolitically there is simply no room for two viable states between the Jordan and the sea. I know Shadi does not agree with this. His attachment to a two-state solution at this point is magical thinking and no longer realistic.
Israel will never allow a truly sovereign Palestinian state with a military capacity to emerge because the threat to its security and survival -- including the probability that such a state would be taken over by Hamas or some other eliminationist group -- would be too great a risk. An existential risk, which in the wake of the Holocaust, no Israeli government will be willing to take. Neither Israel, nor the Palestinians, can meet the minimal requirements of the other, or give them the guarantees they need. The gap between them is simply too great to be bridged.
As to the issue Shadi raised that more Americans, or the Biden Administration, should at least pretend to care about Palestinian lives that will be lost in Gaza, this is how I see it. I will show the same concern for the Palestinian lives lost in this war as the Palestinians and many of their supporters show for the Jewish lives taken on 10/7. Or, if I had been alive during World War II, for the German and Japanese lives lost in the mass bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo. As General Sherman allegedly said, war is hell.
The hard, tragic, zero-sum reality is that you can have a Jewish State of Israel, or you can have an Arab State of Palestine, but you can’t have both. One side will have its national aspirations fulfilled and the other will have them dashed. Geopolitics and the tribal realities of human nature are a bitch.
A thoughtful and excellent podcast. I enjoyed reading Shadi Hamid's recent first article in the W Post on intellectual humility as to the IP conflict and hearing about a new book he is working on re US hegemony. I agree with the points made in the talk that the US is not a fair and honest broker. And, more specifically I support Bernie Sander's call that the US move to providing even-handed foreign policy that is pro-Israel, pro-Palestine and pro-peace.
In my view, both Mr. Nicholson and Dr. Hamid did not reasonably address the root causes of the IP conflict including the large problems that come with the toxic mix of tribalism, nationalism, imperialism, religion and Holy Land. And, awful US foreign policy including wars in the region. The Holy Land is the most contested and war-fought land in human history and the sight of the longest and most protracted ongoing conflict. So, it seems clear that the three Abrahamic faiths and related politics (Zionism, Christian Zionism and political Islam) play a major role as to root causes of the conflict.
Mr. Nicholson had plenty of blame for Hamas and the Palestinian, Muslim and Arab worlds supporting Hamas and not having liberal democracy. But, he wholly failed to look at and be more critical as to the major injustices that Palestinians have sustained following Zionism and Israel with the Nakba, Naksa, 56 year occupation, 200 settlements and 700,000 settlers on remaining 22% of land, refugee crisis and blockade and open air prison of Gaza. And, the large problems coming from western imperialism (Balfour Declaration, settling of two world wars, the west supporting creation of Israel after the Holocaust, etc) in support of Zionism and Israel.
Meanwhile, I think Dr. Hamid should have been far more critical as to antisemitism, Palestinian rejections of 2SS peace in 1947, 2000, etc, anti-Zionism and the support of terrorism and violence that permeates Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, Iran regime, Lion's Den, Al Aqsa Brigades and more generally the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim worlds re anti-Israel sentiments and support for Hamas and resistance. See, for eg, the Middle East Eye video on YouTube showing large protests in Jordan celebrating Hamas. And, call for needed reforms.
End of the day, I think the road to IP peace lies with Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Arabs and supporters on both sides being far more critical of the major obstacles to peace that exist on their respective sides and supporting values of bridge building, human rights, freedom, democracy, security and dignity for all living between the river to the sea.
Shadi - great chat of course. What strikes me most from it is the discussion of the political forces in the Arab / Muslim world. My Muslim friends all make a distinction between their religion (which in their eyes is seen as peaceful) and the political actors or agents involved.
Would love to hear your thoughts going deeper into the religious side of the issue. Ie how many Muslims (of any stripe) feel the Quran supports peaceful coexistence?
If a significant number how would these views gain more political power? Keep up the good work. Damir too
Shadi wondering how Israel could be worried about an existential threat when Arabs are “bad at fighting” has to be one of the most naive claims I’ve heard uttered on the show. There are 7 million Jews in Israel and there are hundreds of millions of Arab Muslims in the region who would prefer Israel didn’t exist. Despite Israel being “better at fighting”, at some point it’s simply a numbers game. Israel is a 1-bomb state as the Iranians like to say.
This was a fascinating podcast. Many talk of creating a genuine heterodox environment but this podcast does what so many fail at.
On the point that Shadi made on the person who couldn't bring themselves to feel anything at the atrocity, i think the answer has to be they must feel empathy for the other side. It's easy for me to say this, but what is the alternative? A degeneration into mere violence for the Palestinian's is the road to absolute ruin. It will not win them a state nor the broader international support required for a genuine solution. It must also be said, the moment we stop feeling empathy for those with whom we dislike or even hate, is the moment we let ourselves off the moral leash. It is a profoundly dangerous position to find ourselves in.
Hey guys, a very informative podcast. I read Shadi’s book, "Islamic Exceptionalism", when it first came out. Unlike Shadi I come to this as a Jewish Zionist supporter of Israel. While at one time I was in favor of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, sadly I have come to agree with Shadi and Robert that this is indeed a foundational zero-sum conflict that cannot be resolved. At least I think that is what Shadi and Robert were saying.
Twenty years ago, during the Second Intifada and not long after 9/11, I was teaching at Yeshiva University in New York. I still believed a two-state solution was possible. Several of my very intelligent, committed, and Talmud trained students took issue with me. They called for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Presenting the conflict in existential, zero-sum, tribal terms, they said: “This is a war for survival. It’s Us or Them. Either we push them over the Jordan, or they push us into the sea. There is no middle ground.”
I have come to understand the logic of their position. The Palestinians have never wanted a two-state solution. I know Shadi will disagree. But this most recent Hamas pogrom just confirmed what I came to understand after the Second Intifada: the goal and aspiration of the Palestinians, and not just Hamas, is the destruction of the Jewish state and the genocide of the Jewish people. They want to complete Hitler’s work. Which is the meaning of the battle cry, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free!” So, to be brutally honest, I no longer care much about the fate of the Palestinians. Like Shadi’s mom’s Palestinian friend, my concern is for my own tribes: America and the Jews.
Geopolitically there is simply no room for two viable states between the Jordan and the sea. I know Shadi does not agree with this. His attachment to a two-state solution at this point is magical thinking and no longer realistic.
https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1718384487392801041
Israel will never allow a truly sovereign Palestinian state with a military capacity to emerge because the threat to its security and survival -- including the probability that such a state would be taken over by Hamas or some other eliminationist group -- would be too great a risk. An existential risk, which in the wake of the Holocaust, no Israeli government will be willing to take. Neither Israel, nor the Palestinians, can meet the minimal requirements of the other, or give them the guarantees they need. The gap between them is simply too great to be bridged.
As to the issue Shadi raised that more Americans, or the Biden Administration, should at least pretend to care about Palestinian lives that will be lost in Gaza, this is how I see it. I will show the same concern for the Palestinian lives lost in this war as the Palestinians and many of their supporters show for the Jewish lives taken on 10/7. Or, if I had been alive during World War II, for the German and Japanese lives lost in the mass bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo. As General Sherman allegedly said, war is hell.
The hard, tragic, zero-sum reality is that you can have a Jewish State of Israel, or you can have an Arab State of Palestine, but you can’t have both. One side will have its national aspirations fulfilled and the other will have them dashed. Geopolitics and the tribal realities of human nature are a bitch.
A thoughtful and excellent podcast. I enjoyed reading Shadi Hamid's recent first article in the W Post on intellectual humility as to the IP conflict and hearing about a new book he is working on re US hegemony. I agree with the points made in the talk that the US is not a fair and honest broker. And, more specifically I support Bernie Sander's call that the US move to providing even-handed foreign policy that is pro-Israel, pro-Palestine and pro-peace.
In my view, both Mr. Nicholson and Dr. Hamid did not reasonably address the root causes of the IP conflict including the large problems that come with the toxic mix of tribalism, nationalism, imperialism, religion and Holy Land. And, awful US foreign policy including wars in the region. The Holy Land is the most contested and war-fought land in human history and the sight of the longest and most protracted ongoing conflict. So, it seems clear that the three Abrahamic faiths and related politics (Zionism, Christian Zionism and political Islam) play a major role as to root causes of the conflict.
Mr. Nicholson had plenty of blame for Hamas and the Palestinian, Muslim and Arab worlds supporting Hamas and not having liberal democracy. But, he wholly failed to look at and be more critical as to the major injustices that Palestinians have sustained following Zionism and Israel with the Nakba, Naksa, 56 year occupation, 200 settlements and 700,000 settlers on remaining 22% of land, refugee crisis and blockade and open air prison of Gaza. And, the large problems coming from western imperialism (Balfour Declaration, settling of two world wars, the west supporting creation of Israel after the Holocaust, etc) in support of Zionism and Israel.
Meanwhile, I think Dr. Hamid should have been far more critical as to antisemitism, Palestinian rejections of 2SS peace in 1947, 2000, etc, anti-Zionism and the support of terrorism and violence that permeates Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, Iran regime, Lion's Den, Al Aqsa Brigades and more generally the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim worlds re anti-Israel sentiments and support for Hamas and resistance. See, for eg, the Middle East Eye video on YouTube showing large protests in Jordan celebrating Hamas. And, call for needed reforms.
End of the day, I think the road to IP peace lies with Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Arabs and supporters on both sides being far more critical of the major obstacles to peace that exist on their respective sides and supporting values of bridge building, human rights, freedom, democracy, security and dignity for all living between the river to the sea.
Shadi - great chat of course. What strikes me most from it is the discussion of the political forces in the Arab / Muslim world. My Muslim friends all make a distinction between their religion (which in their eyes is seen as peaceful) and the political actors or agents involved.
Would love to hear your thoughts going deeper into the religious side of the issue. Ie how many Muslims (of any stripe) feel the Quran supports peaceful coexistence?
If a significant number how would these views gain more political power? Keep up the good work. Damir too
Shadi wondering how Israel could be worried about an existential threat when Arabs are “bad at fighting” has to be one of the most naive claims I’ve heard uttered on the show. There are 7 million Jews in Israel and there are hundreds of millions of Arab Muslims in the region who would prefer Israel didn’t exist. Despite Israel being “better at fighting”, at some point it’s simply a numbers game. Israel is a 1-bomb state as the Iranians like to say.
This was the smartest thing I listened to on this batshit conflagration this week.
It’s hard to be positive under the present circumstances, however it beats watching the news on television.
Thank you for shedding the light on several important questions