He's got a great book on economics from a Roman Catholic perspective. You might want to check it out. It's a short read. I appreciate how he truly thinks outside the box when writing!
I kind of wish Shadi would address Hamas's war strategy of maximizing civilian deaths for its own useful ends. Or even if he would answer Damir and Jennifer's points about the problems of the cease-fire which could barely be raised because Shadi kept interrupting.
I mean, what is there really to say, and what exactly is that relevant to? Hamas is a terrorist organization. We know that. The US has no little, if any, influence on Hamas' behavior. The U.S., however, has considerable influence on Israeli, one of its closest allies and a democracy, however flawed, that should presumably be held to a slightly higher standard than said terrorist organization. More to the point, I'm not sure how Hamas being indifferent to Palestinian lives justifies Israel killing a lot of Palestinian civilians. It takes a woke idea, that victims have no moral agency, and repurposes it to explain Israel's actions, that being victims of Hamas' attack on Oct. 7 it has "no choice." No one ever has no choice. To be human is to retain the ability to make moral distinctions, no matter what the context, as I discuss here: https://wapo.st/3PXPDN1. Re: Hamas, I go into more detail on what I think your question may be getting at in this long thread I did a couple weeks ago: https://x.com/shadihamid/status/1769543359280849404
A very infuriating episode. Shadi really has the patience of a saint dealing with both Damir and Jen's inability to care and reckon, respectively, with the shear destruction the Israeli military has wrought on Gaza.
Also Shadi is right about Philly Shrek's tweet. Agency can't just be applied to one side of the conflict.
I love how Damir almost became the moderator during parts of this haha. On the act of disagreement me and my friends can really disagree vigorously over a drink and then just move on. It is helpful I think and by loving the person behind the opinion, even if that opinion is something we really dislike. Separating the human from the idea I think is pretty vital in civil society and without it we get into the 'personal is political' trap. We should take time to explain why we find views abhorrent if we do so but I think just leaving them aside and daring not to enter such conversations is leaving the issue like a live wire... always dangerous even if we don't touch it right now.
on the issue of the morality and how passionately we should feel I'm not sure I buy the idea that because it's an ally it makes it worse. After-all, America and the West could have intervened in Syria to stop the slaughter. It simply refused to do so. How is this any different? I'm honestly more upset that we allow North Korea to still exist as an entity with 250,000 people rotting away in concentration camps than I am about this. Precisely because we treat a regime like North Korea as a funny joke or an intractable political problem than the deep moral failing that we talk about with Gaza.
Shadi acknowledges that Hamas is a terrible terrorist organization that won’t rest until Israel is destroyed, and, in the same breath, he says that Israel should capitulate and let them remain in power, where they’ll remain an existential threat to Israel’s existence.
"Israel has already succeeded in ending Hamas' rule. Hamas leaders and fighters, for obvious reasons, are not operating above-ground. Gaza is chaos and warlordism. I see no plausible scenario in which Hamas could reconstitute itself as the governing entity under the current circumstances. This is why it's important to distinguish between the goals of "ending Hamas' rule" and "destroying Hamas." They are not the same. To state the obvious, the question of who governs Gaza after Hamas cannot be resolved through military means. It's a fundamentally political question."
My response:
Israel has not yet succeeded in ending Hamas' rule. The fact that Hamas is operating below ground is strategic. They spent 15 years and billions of dollars preparing for this underground fight. Israel is not going to "destroy Hamas". Jihadism in Arab lands can't be destroyed. However, Israel can remove Hamas from power. And it can only be done militarily.
Wooo!! Just listening now and very excited. I work on a project focused on constructive disagreement and was recently reflecting that my personal biggest challenge is not going into "questions and listening mode" but still standing up for myself/beliefs while engaging productively and empathetically. PS congrats on the new partnership!
Thank you! yes, it's definitely a challenge :) Hope you get a chance to listen to the episode and when you do that you find it useful/ enjoyable, but ideally both!
Another epic podcast. Damir is priceless because his consistent worldview is not performative.
Loved the episode. Agree with Shari’s proposal to do a part 2. Thank you, all. 🙏
Yes! I hope we can do that too. Glad you liked the episode! Thank you.
Haven't commented in a long time. But Great episode. Have you all come across the book The Myth of Religious Violence by William Cavanaugh? It's a theological book and was required reading in my comparative religion class in grad school. I've used some of his arguments from his book to push back against some of my fellow Christians (I'm clergy) and their understanding of Islam. I also footnoted the podcast in sermon recently :) See: https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Religious-Violence-Ideology-Conflict/dp/0195385047/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3D5P3YLLRBXAD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MVyxjo600_bom74MSl6ueGLIY0hUpOhc5wNHzboyAs0W9NEIuz5yXoa664Pa_0WAyZIDSByuTRX8Vbm2HUg9CWAOqlFJDfWOle9fl_vlltGG1rH9ytiD1vKlUjyJ7Itd4NJUjpk7icAdpvnvxOWGMMB1hXXNP38mMs4U73PY_wlKdG1TV_BHarEGObeo8ZIPKERMtF8cRa1_LmIN6mBtdb9YpaiUVm5WYPNuDerm4EI.IoXHjdZmZELKYmNiHznwFITEhvR8JXwT2Gh-B4dVQWU&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+myth+of+religious+violence&qid=1711858142&sprefix=the+myth+of+religious+violen%2Caps%2C333&sr=8-1
Yes, love that book! I wrote a bit about it here. It's been a major influence on me. https://www.shadihamid.net/p/the-modern-invention-of-religion
He's got a great book on economics from a Roman Catholic perspective. You might want to check it out. It's a short read. I appreciate how he truly thinks outside the box when writing!
I kind of wish Shadi would address Hamas's war strategy of maximizing civilian deaths for its own useful ends. Or even if he would answer Damir and Jennifer's points about the problems of the cease-fire which could barely be raised because Shadi kept interrupting.
I mean, what is there really to say, and what exactly is that relevant to? Hamas is a terrorist organization. We know that. The US has no little, if any, influence on Hamas' behavior. The U.S., however, has considerable influence on Israeli, one of its closest allies and a democracy, however flawed, that should presumably be held to a slightly higher standard than said terrorist organization. More to the point, I'm not sure how Hamas being indifferent to Palestinian lives justifies Israel killing a lot of Palestinian civilians. It takes a woke idea, that victims have no moral agency, and repurposes it to explain Israel's actions, that being victims of Hamas' attack on Oct. 7 it has "no choice." No one ever has no choice. To be human is to retain the ability to make moral distinctions, no matter what the context, as I discuss here: https://wapo.st/3PXPDN1. Re: Hamas, I go into more detail on what I think your question may be getting at in this long thread I did a couple weeks ago: https://x.com/shadihamid/status/1769543359280849404
A very infuriating episode. Shadi really has the patience of a saint dealing with both Damir and Jen's inability to care and reckon, respectively, with the shear destruction the Israeli military has wrought on Gaza.
Also Shadi is right about Philly Shrek's tweet. Agency can't just be applied to one side of the conflict.
I love how Damir almost became the moderator during parts of this haha. On the act of disagreement me and my friends can really disagree vigorously over a drink and then just move on. It is helpful I think and by loving the person behind the opinion, even if that opinion is something we really dislike. Separating the human from the idea I think is pretty vital in civil society and without it we get into the 'personal is political' trap. We should take time to explain why we find views abhorrent if we do so but I think just leaving them aside and daring not to enter such conversations is leaving the issue like a live wire... always dangerous even if we don't touch it right now.
on the issue of the morality and how passionately we should feel I'm not sure I buy the idea that because it's an ally it makes it worse. After-all, America and the West could have intervened in Syria to stop the slaughter. It simply refused to do so. How is this any different? I'm honestly more upset that we allow North Korea to still exist as an entity with 250,000 people rotting away in concentration camps than I am about this. Precisely because we treat a regime like North Korea as a funny joke or an intractable political problem than the deep moral failing that we talk about with Gaza.
Shadi acknowledges that Hamas is a terrible terrorist organization that won’t rest until Israel is destroyed, and, in the same breath, he says that Israel should capitulate and let them remain in power, where they’ll remain an existential threat to Israel’s existence.
I said no such thing. Without rehashing all of it here, I discuss the canard of "letting Hamas stay in power" in some detail here: https://x.com/shadihamid/status/1769543359280849404
In your tweet, you write:
"Israel has already succeeded in ending Hamas' rule. Hamas leaders and fighters, for obvious reasons, are not operating above-ground. Gaza is chaos and warlordism. I see no plausible scenario in which Hamas could reconstitute itself as the governing entity under the current circumstances. This is why it's important to distinguish between the goals of "ending Hamas' rule" and "destroying Hamas." They are not the same. To state the obvious, the question of who governs Gaza after Hamas cannot be resolved through military means. It's a fundamentally political question."
My response:
Israel has not yet succeeded in ending Hamas' rule. The fact that Hamas is operating below ground is strategic. They spent 15 years and billions of dollars preparing for this underground fight. Israel is not going to "destroy Hamas". Jihadism in Arab lands can't be destroyed. However, Israel can remove Hamas from power. And it can only be done militarily.
Wooo!! Just listening now and very excited. I work on a project focused on constructive disagreement and was recently reflecting that my personal biggest challenge is not going into "questions and listening mode" but still standing up for myself/beliefs while engaging productively and empathetically. PS congrats on the new partnership!
Thank you! yes, it's definitely a challenge :) Hope you get a chance to listen to the episode and when you do that you find it useful/ enjoyable, but ideally both!