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The End of the World As We Know It
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The End of the World As We Know It

Robert Nicholson, a Christian Zionist and friend of the pod, ponders whether the claims of Muslims and Jews are simply irreconcilable.
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In a charged and often emotional conversation,

and welcome Robert Nicholson, the president of the Philos Project, to discuss the pro-Israel perspective as the war in Gaza intensifies. Many Israeli voices have veered sharply to the right. However much we may disagree with these views, we have to understand them.

Robert, a Christian and self-described Zionist, expresses empathy for the Israeli perception of an existential threat next door. Hamas’ attacks have undermined, perhaps fatally, any hope that Israelis might have had that peaceful co-existence is possible not just with Palestinians but with Arabs more broadly. The three consider alternative scenarios, including a reoccupation of Gaza or a policy of complete and total separation.

In the United States, meanwhile, Arab Americans are reacting with despair at President Biden’s stalwart support of Israel. Shadi finds himself in the unenviable position of writing a book subtitled “The Case for American Dominance.” If this is what American dominance looks like, Shadi wonders, can he really support it? And how is he supposed to make the case to Arabs and Muslims that America is, on balance, a force for good?

In the full episode (for paying subscribers only), Shadi, Damir and Robert delve into tricky territory, debating whether “Islamic exceptionalism” makes it difficult for Muslims to ever really accept a U.S.-led order and to ever accept a world in which Israel is as powerful as it is. Were the religious passions that are now being unleashed across the Arab world inevitable—or could they have been tamed and contained by democracy?

Damir and Robert argue that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn’t really about Israel or Palestine but is a proxy for a deeper set of religious, cultural, and civilizational fault lines. In this sense, there may be no way out and no room for compromise. And Arabs and Muslims—as well as much of the Global South—may feel compelled to choose between two drastically different visions of world order: one led by the United States and the other led by America’s growing list of adversaries. There is, as they say, no alternative.

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Agreement is nice. Disagreement is better.